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I'm not 100% sure. It appears like they added half sizes and the overall toe box width is comparable. I find these to be wider feeling than some of the other Lems models.

I discuss this in the comments section under this comparison with the Mesa Trail II: ua-cam.com/video/VhVcNoLq3-E/v-deo.html . Since I track my dog instead of my shoes, it's hard to say exact miles. At least a few hundred, but they definitely wear faster than I would have expected. They've seen a good amount of bushwhacking, snow, and hard-packed gravel use. The uppers need work, the lugs seem soft (good grip, subpar durability), but the experience has been fun. I keep reaching for them.

Oh, interesting. You had the Boulder Boot Waterproof too? We thought the grip was supposed to be the only change as well.

@@Ruinyourknees Yes and I prefer the minimal soles on the standard boulder boot, waterproof and mid over the grip and summit models (suumit is just a guess based off of the grips). I wish they'd have just added some lugs to the sole. I do want to add that I think only those who want that flat minimal feel will care or even notice. I have issues with my left lateral arch, so I notice. My wife doesn't seem to care. She notices a difference from the feel of her mids but says it doesn't bother her.

@@kitcraft9516 Thanks, this is helpful. They aren't as stylish/lifestyle (more traditional hiking look), but I wonder how you'd like the experience of Xero Shoes boot models ( xeroshoes.com/shop/product-category/boots-mens/ ). My mother actually picked up the Xcursion and really likes it. She has to be careful not to wear them too much, at least initially, because they really work her arches. I'm surprised at changes you mentioned in the Lems boots. Their Primal 3 upgrade from Primal 2 seems as expected, except maybe the cork insole.

@@Ruinyourknees Yeah, the Primal 3's are as excepted! I have a pair of Xero 360s that I use for lifting and I enjoy them. I'll have to check out the Xcusrion, thank you.

The video was short so we tried to make it taller.

This is Brian... I've spent a lot of time experimenting with and testing barefoot shoes for hoops. Generally speaking, most of the shoes just aren't made for the lateral forces of basketball. Xero has a shoe called the 360 which says it is meant for court sports, but I don't think hoops is really the intention (we are testing a pair currently). I don't have the Forza myself and Hanna isn't a baller, but I think the toebox would have trouble with heavy lateral force...though one has to wonder if that strap would help. Might be worth trying on in person if you can. Here's an interesting thing: Xero Shoes built a custom basketball shoe for a Denver Nuggets player and he wore it in the playoffs! I spoke with John, who does product development for Xero, about the need for basketball shoes and it seems they are working on solutions. The KneesOverToes group has been working on a minimalist basketball shoe ( uncivilizedsneaker.com/ ), but it seems the uppers may not be dialed yet. As for me, I'm still playing in an old pair of New Balance Minimus 20v4s, but they are wearing out. Let me know if you find anything good!

@@Ruinyourknees ty for the great response i'll let you know if i find something good :)

@@fregger74 Thanks! Basketball shoes tend to be overbuilt in my opinion and are ripe for disruption by models which promote better ground feel and letting the foot and ankle work through a bigger range of motion! I've been playing in very minimal shoes for 20 years and have never (knock on wood) had a major hoops injury. Guys at the gym are always making comments about me needing to get basketball shoes and yet they are the ones with knee and ankle braces. Thanks for the sub! Hoping to roll out some barefoot basketball reviews in the coming months. I might be able to get some early Xero models to try out.

You may, and you have! Is Cloudsurfer 7 your favorite?

Good question. I've worn them for most runs (2-4x/week) for about 6 months on very rocky and steep terrain with lots of bushwhacking, snow, and mud. Unfortunately for you, I use Strava to track my dog Ruby as a pair of shoes instead of my shoes. Best guess: I've run at least a few hundred miles in them. The uppers are flawed as I pointed out and I'm starting to wear the lugs off of the forefoot too, but I've done a lot of 2000' descents on hard-packed, gravelly surfaces. It's funny though, I went for a big trail run yesterday (~15 miles, 4000' of climbing) and still opted for the Scramblers over any other shoe. They are just so fun to run in and grounded, but more built up than the Mesa Trail so there's less fatigue and less cherry-picking through those half-dollar sized rocks which can sting in Mesa Trail. The price is high for the durability, but the experience has been really fun. A tough call for sure.

Good question. I have a pair of Vivos on the way and will try to remember to make a comparison video as soon as they arrive. In the meantime, Xero Shoes are definitely wider than "mainstream" shoes I've used, but not excessively so. The Altras I've tried on seemed roomier than my Xero Shoes (too much so for my foot), but my Nike Terra Kigers seemed narrower than Xero Shoes, though still pretty wide. I equate Xero Shoes to something like a 2E if you were buying widths, maybe slightly larger.

@@Ruinyourknees awesome, thanks

If I understand what you are asking correctly: the Scramblers are much more forgiving that the Mesa Trail II when it comes to hard packed, gravelly terrain - especially when your running motion is repetitive (like on a long road vs random trail surface). After awhile, you will likely encounter more fatigue in these than a heavily cushioned shoe, but you can definitely be sloppier with your foot placement and not get punished. I love running in the Scramblers even though the uppers are fraying.

I have! Here's a review after a few months of extensive use. Read the comments to see how I think it compares to the Mesa Trail... ua-cam.com/video/ba3YAmII8PA/v-deo.html

I didn't even want a dog, but she's now my most consistent trail buddy and likes me more than everyone who demanded we get a dog. Ha ha.

I've never been to Italy during the summer, but have run in these shoes during Colorado summers where the temperature exceeded 90F, they breathed well. You should be fine! If you want something which offers a little more protection underfoot, consider the Scrambler Low. ua-cam.com/video/ba3YAmII8PA/v-deo.html I think you'd find them to be very capable for hiking and travel. The uppers would be warmer though, and dry slower.

@@Ruinyourknees Okay, thank you! I think Mesa II should work for me then 👍

@@cephandrius3679 Enjoy the new shoes.

I'm planning to make a video comparing the two asap. The Mesa Trail II is more minimal in the upper and the sole. I definitely feel the ground more in the Mesa Trail and the legs get more worked in them. They also aren't great for snow. Scramblers are more built up. I find the uppers to be quite padded/plush and the soles are more forgiving on rocky terrain with golf ball sized rocks. In my mind, this makes the Scrambler a good candidate for longer distances and the Mesa Trail better for shorter distances. They both have a nice generalist grip with the Scrambler being extra fun with the Michelin tread. So the Scrambler is more built up and protective, the Mesa Trail is more lean and minimal. The Scrambler is a small SUV, the Mesa Trail is a race car.

"and the soles are more forgiving on rocky terrain with golf ball sized rocks." Would you still consider them minimalist shoes? Can you still feel the ground with them? I'm currently wearing the Lone Peak from Altra on trails, which I belive are way more padded than the Scarmbler, or any Xero shoe actually. For an everyday walk on the street, I use the Xero Prio, and I love the fact that thy're basically a sock with a thin sole.

@@an.20.24 "Would you still consider them minimalist shoes?" A good question. They are zero drop and feel very grounded. I consider them minimalist in their philosophy of letting foot and lower leg mechanics work in full, combined with the zero drop and firm sole. However, they are not minimalist in the sense of Five Fingers or even Mesa Trail II. I don't feel the ground as acutely as with those shoes which let the wearer notice all the small details (sand, pine needles, hard pack, mossy, etc.) - there's less picking one's way through terrain. In essence, I can be lazier in Scramblers and they take less of a toll as the miles start to add up. In my mind, these would be intriguing minimalist long distance shoes, but may leave you wanting if you want intensive shorter training sessions. The soles really are great for scrambling and managing all of those rocks which tend to sting in leaner shoes. The uppers are thicker and a bit slushy on the Scramblers. In the winter, I appreciated the extra insulation but in the summer I'd be happy with something thinner like the Mesa Trail II. Finally, the Scrambler could make a nice hiking shoe, and I imagine the high top version could be nice in places where the vegetation wants to shred ankles. Hope this is useful. They are a fun shoe, something in between full minimalist and leaner trail running shoes.

Here's a quick video comparison of the Scrambler Low and Mesa Trail 2: ua-cam.com/video/VhVcNoLq3-E/v-deo.html

Ah, that's too bad! I really like the shoes and if I ever tried an ultra in a minimalist shoe, this would be it. I ran mine through a lot of rough terrain this winter, and was wondering if the issue was just with me. The upper material needs some work. This doesn't happen to the Mesa Trail II shoes. Thanks for the comment and happy trails!

Definitely. Most Lems shoes are good generalist shoes. I wear the Mesa Trail around town all the time and they've held up quite well. I view their shoes as versatile shoes more suited to town than trail, but capable on both.

@@Ruinyourknees Thanks for the reply! I have a pair on the way.

@@Pablito46 Enjoy!

I love them in the summer and have been trying the Scrambler Low in the winter. The Scramblers have been good in the snow, ice, and mud but are starting to fray on the edges.

The shoes have held up well, but Hanna doesn't wear them everyday. In general, we've found Lems shoes to be well made and durable - the Trailhead, Primal II, and Mesa in particular. The suede upper is doing fine but may not last as long as the materials on a model like the Trailhead (a much firmer, less "comfy" shoe). Lems has great people though. If you had a problem, their customer support should take care of you (within reasonable use) and I find their shoes to be better made than most other shoes in general. So, despite shoes getting pricey, Lems has to be one of the better choices. Not sure if that's particularly helpful. Plus, you stand on your feet everyday - a nice shoe isn't an indulgence!

​@@Ruinyourknees Thanks for the quick answer, I work in construction so I have my work boots most of the time, and I'm going barefoot when I'm at home so these should be worth it for me from what you said (what a relief) On the "not an indulgence" part yeah that's for sure but I don't have a consistent salary so I have to think everything through when I'm about to buy something 😂. I was also interested in the trailhead so it seems I'll have to make my choice between these two now ahah.

@@mariemeinworld9448 Trailhead might be more durable, these will be more comfy and fun. If you are going to be wandering around any job sites with them, go with the Trailhead. And I feel you, it's $15-$20 to get a burger (hello, crockpot).

@@mariemeinworld9448 20% off Lems shoes this weekend. President's Day sale.

It's funny, we didn't even notice this until you mentioned it. After months of use, it's no worse than you spotted in the video. On one shoe, that laminate material is not cracked, only creased. On the other shoe, there is a small crack in the laminate from the shoe creasing there. But this is like a thin plastic overlay, the thicker fabric beneath is fine. It really looks like a crease, because it is. Ha ha. Doesn't seem to hurt the overall shoe look or performance, but this would surely bother some people.

You spotted my ocd lolz. I called Lems and it was a defect they since fixed and shouldn’t happen anymore.

@@whitey4311 Ha! This is good to know, thanks for sharing. Hanna and her sister-in-law both really enjoy these shoes.

Thank you for the kind words!

Ah, good to know! Best ones we found in that clump.

The Primal Pursuit is durable, but it doesn't feel locked down to the ground like a Xero Shoe does. I think you'd be a candidate for instability on hard lateral stops because they feel tall and stiff. So an ankle roll could be in the cards for certain people. I believe the Pursuit is hardy and a good general purpose shoe, but it's not a performance shoe. Personally, I've got my eye on the Scrambler Low from Xero Shoes and wonder if that might work for your purposes: xeroshoes.com/shop/shoes/scrambler-low-men/

I'd say the newer version did feel a little roomier/loose, but only by a small amount. Now I've got my eye on the Scrambler Low!

That's a tough call. I think they'd generally be great for such events. The only case I'm not sure of is if you have a very wet/muddy solid surface - like scaling a slick half pipe. In general, the rubber soles stick well and some versions of Xero Shoes now come with a Michelin rubber. Under dry conditions they'd rule, and generally do a pretty good job of shedding mud and water. I did a Tough Mudder in Colorado one year and think the Xero Shoes could've handled it well... Sorry, not 100% sure but I do trust them on difficult terrain around here.

As a minimalist shoe, running on road or pavement definitely won't be a cushioned experience - your legs/arches/achilles/calves will need to do all of the work. Most people interested in barefoot style running want this dynamic. The Mesa Trail lugs do well on pavement and hardpack because they aren't overly aggressive and don't really create a "drag" feel. I've noticed the front right ball of my foot can get a hotspot on hard surfaces, but I think that's due to some kind of an emerging foot issue, not a lug placement. My suggestion would be that the shoes are capable for mixed road use, but I wouldn't pick them as my dedicated road shoe.

@@Ruinyourknees thank you

They just work!

I'd say the toe room is comparable or maybe a bit narrower than the trailhead v2.

@@Ruinyourknees thank you!

I think it's fair to think of these as good all around training shoes which will do a respectable job at many tasks, including handling some wet terrain. I wouldn't trust my life to them on wet rocks or roots, but they have some grip and do especially well when the terrain is just a bit damp/tacky. They also shed mud pretty well since the lugs aren't too aggressive. Being flat to the ground does help. So, I'd say they are average at handling wet surfaces, not great. They're not really meant for any serious weather conditions though they did well in the lights snow and mud towards the end of the video.

I wouldn't recommend either for basketball. You might take a look at the Xero Shoes 360, Xero Shoes Prio, or this: uncivilizedsneaker.com/products/uncivilized-sneaker

Wow, thanks for this!

Lems is definitely not minimalistic like Xero Shoes, unless you go with the Primal 2. They are durable, zero or low drop lifestyle shoes. Here's a round up on 10 of the best: 10shoe.com/list/best-lems-shoes/ I enjoy them and wear them quite a bit, but Xero is much more "barefoot" style.

No sure if you are referring to the old version or the new. I don't pay much attention to distance on shoes. The old one (green) probably has 200-300k and the new maybe had 60k-100k at the time of the video. Sorry, rough estimates!

Not really. There is a little laminate around the bottom of the foot which would keep a little water out, but the uppers are very think and breathable. Water would flood right in. However, if you live in a hot or dry climate, the shoes would dry fairly quickly after water crossings.

Interesting. Reminds me of this podcast where the Xero Shoes founder describes how hard the process of getting shoes manufactured is: xeroshoes.com/press/how-i-built-this-podcast/

Hi! I don't have the Born to Run version, but the Mesa Trail 2 definitely felt a little roomier in the toe box to me. Just a bit though... a little more play. It may have more to do with that toe guard material being different vs an actual volume change - not sure.

The Trailhead and Primal Pursuit definitely don't have the same zero-drop experience as Xero Shoes or even the Lems Primal 2. It's hard for me to gauge if there is a drop on mine, but they aren't responsive like many other barefoot shoes. I do enjoy wearing them around for "all purpose" lifestyle outings but don't think they will give the same benefits as more minimal options on the market.

@@Ruinyourknees thanks for reply. I have an email in to Lems. Let’s see how they reply. My big thing is they shouldn’t advertise them as zero drop when they def aren’t.

@@mtbin2 Please let me know what you discover! They have good customer support in my experience.

@@Ruinyourknees will do

I saw someone playing indoor with v1 of these shoes and that was on turf. Don't expect the same traction as cleats, but you could probably get away with it. If you can try a pair on first, I'd recommend it. You may or may not decide there is too much lateral movement in the forefoot for soccer cuts and striking the ball with the round laces may be annoying.

It's a good question. If they weren't lugged for trails, I'd tell you the Xero Shoes Mesa Trail II ( ua-cam.com/video/TSCLdZsXFaE/v-deo.html ), hands down. It's the right balance of flex, protection, and fit. Primal 2 fits nice and snug, it might remind you of what you liked about Merrell, but I don't think of Primal 2s as running shoes. They seem more like a lifestyle shoe. The HFS is a shoe I know some people love to run roads in. It is very minimalist, perhaps a tad much for me over 13 miles. It's also got a little play which might be annoying while running. They breathe nicely. Personally, I'd probably pick the HFS over the Primal, because I don't think of the Primal as a running shoe. Still, the Primal might actually be perfect for you. I'm guessing it probably is, and has a little more underfoot cushion while still being flexible, which would be nice pounding down the street. Both shoes are nice, and I wear them each all the time.

@@Ruinyourknees Okay thanks... I just ordered the HFS! I'll look for the Primal 2 for my next pair so that I can have the comparison. I'll try to remember to report back once I've tried both!

@@KyleMcStravick The HFS is a great shoe. If you don't like it for roads, I imagine you'll like it for just wearing around or hitting the gym. Would definitely be curious to know how it goes!

100% agree. I was thinking something similar on yesterday's run in The Mesa II. The pace and cadence were easy and the range of motion was a good workout, but doing anything at race pace or long distance can come with trade-offs in the form of fatigue and exposure to the pounding of race pace. A more engineered, yet modest shoe would be my race choice as well - especially for long distance and backcountry. Thanks for the comment and happy trails!

@@Ruinyourknees ...And what shoe for example would that be? (which is zero drop) b. Also, rating for mesa trail one and two on amazon doesn't look promising. People complain for durability issues. What do you think?

@@Saul-nu1mt I've been using some older Nike Terra Kigers for long distance, gnarly terrain, or backcountry. I grabbed a couple pairs of v5 ( ua-cam.com/video/x_Qkol9zrkE/v-deo.html ) and v6 after having a good experience on some ultra distance days on mountain trails. These are not zero drop, maybe 4mm (which I tend to like, still feel pretty flat/grounded/low). I'm still working through these pairs and haven't felt the need to find a zero-drop shoe for big days, though I'd be happy to. You can still find Kiger v6 on Ebay, if interested. The newer versions seem too built up, but v6 was nice because it was low, wide-ish, with balanced traction. Plus, they manage water reasonably well.

Yes! Gusseted tongue would be nice. I've also always liked the shoelaces which pinch in every half inch or so, and stay locked down once laced. These really are a great summer shoe, thin uppers. I need to try running these through some creeks. Right now everything is frozen. Hopefully v2 doesn't destroy your toes. The guard did ok for me, even on steep down.

What do you mean the toeguard destroyed your toes? How so?

@@MayTheSchwartzBeWithYou Too tight on the sides and too stiff. Painful experience.

Thanks. As you said, the toe box will fit some feet and not others. I wouldn't classify their shoes as trash since they are very well made, stylish, and durable. From a barefoot perspective, I agree: some models of Lems seem very built up in the sole (not letting the foot do much work), and the toe box seems wider than a typical shoe but perhaps narrower than other brands like Xero Shoes or Altra. Some models, like the Primal 2 seem more barefoot-oriented, but I generally think of Lems as zero-drop lifestyle shoes which don't let the foot work like some other brands. I've never tried them due to price, but I wonder if some of the VivoBarefoot hiking boots would work for you?

@@Ruinyourknees You'll have to re-read what I said--I didn't call their shoes trash, I said that Lems *as a company* is trash now. They appear to have abandoned their initial ethos in favor of ever growing warehouses and sales goals. I don't begrudge them for wanting to grow as a company, but I do take issue with them executing a rug pull in terms of marketing and their initial customer base. I've been following Lems since 2015--back then it was all talk of 'anatomical foot shape' and 'ground feel' and 'natural movement' and every year has brought new designs that would seemingly contradict that. Narrower and more padding would be the antithesis of the aforementioned goals, yeah? So why then? The obvious fix? Continue to offer styles in the original shape, and then ADD a narrower option for those who would like that. The best news would be that with the multiple warehouse moves in recent years Lems is planning to offer various widths--and communicating that timeline in any form at all would be satisfactory for now--though there is no evidence of this being the case. Instead they alienate early supporters and come across as caring more about profits than an idea. Makes them seem phony, imo. Thanks for the VivoBarefoot recommendation! Tried them in 2013 when they were still only available in Euro sizing--have tried them on again since, but I need a half size which, surprisingly, they still don't offer. They also have a very low-profile toebox and a high pricetag, but if they had my size I would at least give them a shot. I have friends that rave about them.

@@aslansalive Ah, thanks for explaining. I'd agree, "ground feel" and "natural movement" aren't the experience of certain Lems shoes we've tried such as the Primal Pursuits and Trailheads. Those are more like durable lifestyle shoes with zero-drop. VivoBarefoot wearers do seem to swear by them. I met a guy who even got the boots approved for wildland firefighting duties. I think Xero Shoes has a few hiking boots ( xeroshoes.com/shop/product-category/boots-mens/ ) more oriented towards actually hiking and less towards lifestyle. I was wondering about a shoe like this for backcountry terrain at a place like the Grand Canyon, where the plant life would shred ankles in low-cut shoes. A low profile shoe with ankle protection (thinking plants and reptile bites, not support) could be good. At a glance, they aren't exactly stylish like these Lems or VivoBarefoot.

@@Ruinyourknees "...who even got the boots approved for wildland firefighting duties". Wow! What a testament to the quality of boot VivoBarefoot is putting out. If the day comes that they start offering half sizes, I'll be the first in line. Unfortunately, after 10 years of waiting, I don't think that will ever be the case. It's funny that you bring up Xero--after it was apparent that Lems was changing their ethos and moving toward more conventional-shaped footwear, I went on the search for my next boot. I looked at both the Xcursion and Daylite from Xero, but I have reservations--and to Lems credit, here's what I think works so well in the Boulder boot: leather. Having minimal padding on the upper, and the ability to cinch them snug around the ankle, after a short break-in period the Boulder boots were not only incredibly comfortable, but also amazingly supportive, especially in the ankle area. Have you found this to be the case as well? My hesitation with the Xcursion and Daylite is that they are designed like most traditional 'hiking boots' in that they have a generous layer of padding around the ankle. Well, by definition, the padding is there to give--so it becomes this contradiction when it's time to hit the trails, because I am looking for support from a material that by design is there to give. It practice, this delivers a boot that is overly snug in the beginning, and then deteriorates quickly as the padding breaks down around the ankle, leaving the wearer with a very short 'Goldilocks period' where they are just right. Enter the Xero Denver Leather? Ha, my friend I have to thank you for posting that link, otherwise it may have been a long while before discovering that Xero has released this new boot! It looks to tick all the boxes, with what appears to be *just* enough tread to be usable on a trail. To be fair, I'm not after a multi-day, 50+ mile boot. I'm looking for something for solid day hikes in the 6-10 mile range. If Lems wants to bring the Boulder Summit to market in the original wide shape, I'm all ears, otherwise it looks like the Xero Denver Leather are going to be exactly what I'm after! Thank you for the conversation here, you've earned a subscriber. Cheers!

@@aslansalive This conversation beats what I'm supposed to be doing. Seems like the Xero boot makes a lot of sense for you and I've been enjoying their Trail Mesa II running shoe lately (about to post a review). If you try it and remember, drop a note here to say how they are. Grand Canyon back country is my use case. I can't speak much to the Lems boot since Justin tested it and you are chatting with Brian (confusing, sorry). I'm with you though, not a big fan of generous padding as it can pack out, get waterlogged, and give a "clunky" experience. Thanks for subscribing. We don't post much, but put something out from time to time. Cheers!

Thank you! I've been looking for any leftover mt110v2's in size 14 wide for years. Guess I should've purchased more at the time since many shoes have now trended towards maximalist. Mesa Trails aren't my dream shoe, but they do feel very grounded and give a great workout. Plus, this version looks better than the first edition. Happy trails, it's an amazing planet!